01 June 2008 @ 11:35 pm
The subject of slash  
So, the subject of slash. While it creeped me out at the tender age of 11-13, on one magical day after watching Queer As Folk for the first time out of curiosity, innocence as I knew it went out the window. And boy did I love it >:D

Ever since then, I've been slashing male characters left and right. Oh look, they touched, oh, those two looked at each other oddly. TOTALLY DOING IT OMG. Yes, sometimes learning a male gay character - or actor - was on a tv show is what made me tune into said show in the first place, shallow as it may be. I just needed my slashy fix, rightnowplz!

But something happened. I don't know what, but currently, some things regarding slash are getting a little old for me. Hell, I love it, yes I do. But certain aspects of the whole slashing everything has begun to become, oh, a wee bit... redundant perhaps? For me. Maybe I've just had a bit too much of it at once.

*watches f-list at it quickly shrinks* Oh shit :O


I'm a bad slasher. It seems like what other people are seeing now, I don't see it? I've slashed so many fanon pairings, reached, that now I'm like, okay enough already.

Or maybe my sex drive has dried up like a prune and I'm sick of sex, sex, sex. Nooo, I don't mean sex = bad, wrong, SHUN!

I guess I'm just bored of some of the discussions (no you do not want to rape Jensen or see Jared rape Jensen! \o/) , or fics featuring more sex than anything else. Like, pr0n here, pr0n there, now fit in some plot here. Okay, more pr0n! And the utter female character bashing that comes with it all. Ohh I hesitate to even say this because I don't like to poo on fics lol, I mean I've read so many wonderful stuff out there, where sex isn't the sole plot. I'd die without teh fic to sate my needs that my shows fail to give to us.

While I've read slash for quite some time, Clex is the first pairing where I did not feel uncomfortable reading NC-17. And now I'm realizing... I think it's the only pairing where I feel that way. One of the few at least. Gay sex does not disgust me in the least. No seriously, GET YO GROOVE ON, BOYS. And let me watch. But when it comes to fanon pairings, I just can't get into it lately. And yes, many times when I do read fic, it can get quite out of character. Crying every five sentences and acting like little girls in general? Merton Dingle... or Shawn Spencer... wearing leather pants and a lip piercing... long hair, uttering the words "bloody" and "yes, love? " Errrrrr, no thank you.

Hmm, maybe it's just kink!fic that's turning me off. lol. When I do read slash, domestic is the way to go for me. Yay! But, you know, not too fluffy.

Of course, that's not all fics out there, like I said before, I've read many great ones and would die if it didn't exist.

I love seeing slashy moments on tv, absolutely relish in it, but that's it for most pairings. Like, when it comes to buddy love (Shawn and Gus, Cory and Shawn, and the likes of them... Tommy/Merton being an exception because it's almost that canon) I don't know, in the end, I would much rather read a story, or see an intimate scene between them that involves comfort, or a closeness, that does not include sex. Same for incest, Wincest specifically. They're brothers. That's a close enough bond for me. I don't need more than that. For those who slash them however, I'm not judging. Have fun with it! If that's what gets you going, good for you :D

Buddy/family moments get to me much more than something that's sexual. I don't care to look into the deeper meaning of Brian/Justin, surely of course there was more to them than all the shower sex and whatnot, but the constant sex scenes bored the shit out of me, I'm sorry, but it just didn't appeal to me.

I haven't read RPS in awhile. Heh... I think what even get me started on thinking about this post was this whole David Cook/David Archuleta thing going on. Hey, I am a member of cookleta, but damn it, their brotherly love is SOFUCKINGCUTE. For those who see more than that, ya know, no problem with me. But I can't get behind it. I can't do it \o/ Archie is just so innocent and sheltered, it feels wrong to read any naughty fics with him. I mean heck, he's never even been on a date before, I can't see him "totally fucking Cook". Looking at their moments of a big brother/little brother thing is so much more satisfying to me than seeing it as a slashy thing. Though I can understand how someone can take the looks Archie gives him as somewhat of a crush thing. *shrug*

What I would like to see more of is canon gay relationships on television. I'd love more canon. I want something that's actually going to happen lol. But for fuck's sake, stop blocking the damn kisses with your shoulder and/or hand. That's just stupid and pointless. >:(

\o/ Oh, self. Never make posts at midnight, haven't you learned, fool?! You FOOL.

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( 40 comments — Leave a comment )
Azrielle Jones: clark: fearazrielle_jones on June 2nd, 2008 10:25 am (UTC)
I love hearing different opinions on slash, fandom, fanon/canon and all that. You shouldn't be afraid to lose friends over it :) I made a post about SV the other day and thought 'hmm this all sounds fine in my head, but in the post...' But whatever.

I definitely used to be way more into slash, too. I'd slash a stop sign and a crossing guard, it didn't matter!

I think you can just get overexposed to it after a while. After being super mega addicted, I took a two year break from all fic and slash, and afterwards found Clex, and it turned out pretty well ;)
Alicia: TommyxMerton sooo cute!goodnightsong on June 3rd, 2008 07:43 pm (UTC)
I know, I know *shakes head at self* I just wanted to be extra careful as to not come across as bashing anybody the post applied to.

"I made a post about SV the other day and thought 'hmm this all sounds fine in my head, but in the post...' "
Heh, that happens to me all the time.

Or a tynant bottle and a pool stick o.o Wow, too much Smallville...

Who knows, maybe after any kind of break from slash overexposure,coming back to it will be like me experiencing it for the first time lol. That was awesome. *g*
Cris: Torchwood - Jack/Ianto - save the last dduskwillow on June 2nd, 2008 11:06 am (UTC)
I guess I'm just bored of all the fics featuring more sex than plot. Like, pr0n here, pr0n there, now fit in some plot here. Okay, more pr0n! And the utter female character bashing that comes with it. Ohh I hesitate to even say this because I don't like to poo on fics lol, I mean I've read so many wonderful stuff out there, where sex isn't the sole plot.
Bob yes! Couldn't agree more!

The same thing happened to me a year ago. Now I just find myself scrolling through sex scenes and trying to catch if there's any important dialog going on. But other than that - give me more plot please.
I've been reading fics for the last 10 years, and I mean- there are just so many ways you can write only sex fic, no matter the fandom.
I stopped reading PWPs ages ago.

Though I still enjoy good sex scenes, if they are important for the plot, there's something more going on/there's emotion behind it.

As for slashing, I've always been weird. I slash the same way I ship all the couples - I'm picky. If there's no chemistry and if the dynamic between characters isn't interesting I won't care about the ship. Just having two hot guys on the screen isn't enough for me.

or Shawn Spencer... wearing leather pants and a lip piercing... long hair, uttering the words "bloody" and "yes, love? "
lmao!!
My eyes! My eyes!!
Alicia: TommyxMerton sooo cute!goodnightsong on June 4th, 2008 09:07 am (UTC)
Yeah, a good sex scene in a fic I definitely don't mind, as long as that's not all there is to it. I can't even count how much fic I've read that much of it just seems like I'm reading the same thing and I can't differentiate between one fic and another (I mean, regarding the ones where sex is the main plot). Though there are a select few exceptions from the Clex fandom. And also, if there is going to be a sex scene, besides character and plot importance, I like the sex to be realistic (but not mechanic). Condoms, preparation, that appeals to me oddly.

Yeah. It all comes down to chemistry, the connection and interaction... definitely good acting or else wtf get off my screen. Strip away the fact that they're two hot men and if there's nothing beneath it, there's no reason for me to invest in the pairing.

I know :\ So okay, maybe not Shawn, but I've seen variations of that happen to Clark numerous times lol.

Naomi: Clex It's the end by lidifrelling_tralk on June 2nd, 2008 12:14 pm (UTC)
I think I got overexposed to slash in SV fandom lol. I still read some fics, but I often find myself skipping the sex scenes, and I certaintly don't read anywhere near as much as I once did. PWP is now boring to me, I think I've just read too much sex over the years and there's little new there

I like fic more now for interesting character dynamics, characters falling apart, H/C maybe. Even just an interesting conversation
Alicia: Kiss my eyes and lay me to sleep ♥ Clexgoodnightsong on June 3rd, 2008 05:47 am (UTC)
Yeah, the overexposure. I mean, I love a good sexual moment between Clark and Lex in a fic, but mostly ones that involve lots of character development and keep the interesting dynamics between them. I don't even bother reading fics that are PWP anymore. I guess the honeymoon is over :(

Ack. I don't even I've actually even read much Clex fic in awhile, period :\ But when I do, agreed, I'll settle for some of that good breaking down/HC fic, something I really wish we could have seen on Smallville. Or humor when well written.
Naomi: Master forgiven by Doctor by lidifrelling_tralk on June 3rd, 2008 11:30 am (UTC)
I don't read that much Clex lately either, in fact in the past year or so I've only reread my favourite Clex fics, rather than continue reading new ones. In season 1 time the standard of fic in Clex fandom was just so amazing and varied that it might have spoilt me for other fandoms a bit!


I've started reading Doctor/Master fics from Doctor Who (see icon *g*), but then I can't be titilated by just reading the PWP or S&M that is often produced. I want a decent length fic of showing them working through their problems with one another


And I know what you mean about not really needing sex with some of your pairings. Like I adore Sean and Christian's relationship from Nip/Tuck. They are like brothers, BFF who will always be there for another. The shows teases the slashy subtext sometimes, but honestly I'm just as happy seeing their hugs, as I would be if they ever did kiss. Some people seem to think slash is all about just wanting to see two hot guys rolling around between the sheets, and for me it's not that at all. It's male bonding and friendship that really appeals to me, reading of the emotional connection of the characters and the need for one another

Edited at 2008-06-03 11:31 am (UTC)
Alicia: Kiss my eyes and lay me to sleep ♥ Clexgoodnightsong on June 4th, 2008 08:51 am (UTC)
The same basically goes for me. If I am in the mood for Clexy time, I just fish for some of my old favorites. It's true though... I have never been in a fandom before SV that had such a wide variety of fanfiction - you name it and it's probably around somewhere - and the quality, too.

*nods* That's what makes a pairing, and how their relationship is portrayed in a fic, appeals to me. What sets this apart from just any old "ohh two hot guys getting it on" fic?

Ah, I remember watching a few episodes of Nip/Tuck and the bond between Christian and Sean. I could never commit to the show, even though aspects did appeal to me. But yeah, if there is subtext, ya know, that makes me a happy camper certainly, but if I had to choose between seeing character A and character B having a hot sex scene, or having an intimate/comforting moment between two friends expressing their care for the other, I will pick the latter any day of the week. But I still wouldn't oppose to any sexual relation, just as long as there is more to it than the hotness factor. There HAS to be a deeper connection and genuine care for each other. And decent acting, srsly.
suzycatsuzycat on June 7th, 2008 12:09 am (UTC)
Somebody commented once on how little actual Nip/Tuck slash there is, and she suggested it was because the show is just that slashy already. They've effectively gone there with Christian having erotic dreams about Sean, and before that, the time they had the threesome with the Juliaalike, well, if it was going to happen it would have happened then. The show would not shy away. Even in the last season (current here) Sean and Christian come across as a gay couple, coparenting Wilbur, at times.

I believe the N/T creator described the show as a love story between two straight men, and that's exactly what it is. Christian and Sean love each other dearly and more than anyone else, but they're just not sexually attracted to men. If they were, of course, they'd totally be doing it.

in Season 1 the standard of fic in Clex fandom was just so amazing
Hells, yes. I was quite shocked when I discovered that there was tons of really shitty fic out there. The fandom attracted a lot of oldschool fen who were excellent fic writers, as well as new people who also happened to write really well. There was something about Clex that just attracted good writers.
olettuce13aolettuce13a on June 2nd, 2008 01:16 pm (UTC)
so we havent talked in ages, and you probably dont even remember who i am, lol, so its a little strange posting a comment, i know. but ive been super nostalgic lately, so, bear with me. i totally hear ya on all that stuff. that was me like 2 years ago. but then after a long hiatus from slash, ive come back and found i really enjoy it. only certain ones, of course, and only ones where the writing is actually coherent and theres some sort of plot. i also got back into writing, and find it funny that you post this right after i post to slashchallenges and ask for it to be resurrected or for a beta, lol. oh life.
PEACE!
-Glynnis (if you even remember who i am, lol)
Alicia: TommyxMerton sooo cute!goodnightsong on June 3rd, 2008 06:19 am (UTC)
YOU. Of course I remember you! You're only like, one of the few people I enjoyed on JKW Wow, it's been forever. Ha. Nice to hear from you :) Nah, its not strange.

Yeah, I'm kind of hoping after reeling back from all this slash overexposure, I'll eventually get in the groove again and stop being annoyed by everything like I am lately. Though I'm so over the bad!fic with disregard to characterization and logicality. Oh that's good that you're writing again, yay. Lol wow, funny coincidence.

Peace! :D
Bethany: star treksnowystingray on June 2nd, 2008 02:08 pm (UTC)
Like, when it comes to buddy love (Shawn and Gus, Cory and Shawn, and the likes of them... Tommy/Merton being an exception because it's almost that canon) I don't know, in the end, I would much rather read a story, or see an intimate scene between them that involves comfort, or a closeness, that does not include sex.

You know, that's how I feel about a lot of things, especially the ones you've mentioned. I was rewatching some Psych the other day, and Shawn & Gus seriously have one of my favourite TV relationships between two guys, but I've never really felt the need to slash them because they just seem so perfect as-is. I think I'll always be drawn more to UST, just because I think those dynamics are more fun to explore -- it's not just about, "...And then these two hot guys have sex!" Nothing is more boring than a PWP where you could seriously just do a search-replace with the two names, switch them out for another fandom, and still have the fic read the same way. I like more character-specific involvment with speculating about what might cause these two people to change their relationship, how canon could be led to take that extra step, etc. Which leads me to:

What I would like to see more of is canon gay relationships on television. I'd love more canon. I want something that's actually going to happen lol.

OMG could not agree more. On the one hand, I like a lot of my ships to remain subtexty because UST is one of those things that, well... once it's resolved, it's not UST any more! And then of course fanon will always always give us more room to play around than canon will. But at the same time, it is kind of frustrating that a lot of shows actively pander to slashers, but without actually committing to anything -- acknowledging without really addressing LGBT relationships, which feels too much like avoidance to me (I'm looking at YOU, House, MD!).
Alicia: Shawn ♥ Gusgoodnightsong on June 3rd, 2008 05:36 am (UTC)
Exactly! Ya know, for a little bit I did read some Shawn&Gus slash, and yeah complained about the lack of it compared to Shawn&Lassiter (though I'm not opposed to S/L of course), hell I even made a slashy Shus fanvid lol, but honestly... in the end, their friendship is damn well enough for me. They've been friends "practically since birth", they're brothers basically. That's much more special and intimate to me, than something that's more sexual above everything else.

"Nothing is more boring than a PWP where you could seriously just do a search-replace with the two names, switch them out for another fandom, and still have the fic read the same way. I like more character-specific involvment with speculating about what might cause these two people to change their relationship, how canon could be led to take that extra step, etc."

Definitely! *nods* Sex scenes and/or fics can be great, but where that's the sole purpose? Often times it just doesn't stand out. I want character development, I want to know what led these characters to become closer, I want a connection. The connection between the two people is what is most important to me. Not the hotness.

Oh yes. I mean, subtext is fun! I love looking into things, and the fandom "what if this happened" scenarios I love that the actual writers could never give us. But after so much pointing at character A claiming that they secretly in love with character B to the point of deluding myself that it could actually happen, I'm just... ack, ready for *actual* possibilities of two men getting together on a show. I've kind of reeled back from the whole thinking everyone is gay, but seriously... I still stand by what I've said not long ago, Shawn is BI, DAMN IT. Hey I said kind of. Heh.
just a girl: ianto (tw) | ianto jones._touched on June 2nd, 2008 04:29 pm (UTC)
You know, I think I'm kind of with you on this front. Meaning that lately, most of the slash that I've read - has been stuff that I've been very picky about. It's most been of the hurt/comfort, give me a little more plot and dialouge and if it has sex or a little intimate moment, it hasn't been something that's overpowered the whole entire fic. Lately, the only slash pairings I've read anything on has been, Jack/Inato and Clex.

More than anything, I think my het pairings win out over my slash pairings. I don't even remember when the last time I sat down and watched my QAF dvd's or even wanted to, honestly. That's a first for me, since you know I'm completely Brian/Justin. I haven't even read any decent Wincest in the last six months. I think I've still been reeling from Dean's death and I would rather read hurt/comfort fics, instead.

I'd like to focus more on the canon slash, as well. However, Brothers&Sisters, ticked me of a little with that one. It's pretty bad, when you only like one half of a canon couple and you feel like other half is all wrong for the person the show has them paired up with. Maybe there's a silver-lining with Saul and next season, thought at the moment, I'm still trying to decide if I'm going to watch it or not. I mean, given some of the storylines that I think are going to come to fruitation and that kinda puts me off a bit.

I find the things that I enjoy most about my shows, are my het couples and getting back in touch with them. Like, Sam and Jack (which, aren't a couple but do have a close bond) on Without A Trace, re-watching my Grissom&Sara moments on CSI, and then of course enjoying other's.

Anyway, I said all of that to say, that I happen to agree with most everything that you said here. :)
Alicia: So here we are ♥ Shawn + Julietgoodnightsong on June 3rd, 2008 10:33 am (UTC)
Oh yes. Give me H/C, character driven fic any day over PWP. Of course I'm not opposed to a sexually intimate moment, but it has to really mean something, not just ohhh two hot guys screwing each other. What's been bugging me most though are the slash fics that completely turn the female characters into either uncharacteristically screeching, sobbing, or gay-hating weaklings. Is this really how some people see all girl characters?

I am a slasher at heart. The main het couple on show A is the forefront, while I'm seeing something between guy A and guy B lol. But I've come around to the het, appreciating it more. Not so "All girls, off my shows and my men, you unworthy of air whores!" Ya know, it's fun, and actually something I'm (mostly) reassured will happen in the end.

"I think I've still been reeling from Dean's death and I would rather read hurt/comfort fics, instead. "

Agreed. I need my Dean comfort like woahz after that.

*hugs* Sorry B&S has been disappointing you. I wish things had gone differently as well. Hmph.
just a girl: shules (psych) | stole heart&seat_touched on June 3rd, 2008 08:37 pm (UTC)
See, that's what I find myself falling into lately, as well. I've read a lot of h/c and angst, regarding Jack/Ianto, Clex and I've even found some pretty good Kevin/Jason from Brothers&Sisters - even though you have to literally dig to get to that. It's buried underneath a pile of Kevin&Scotty and you KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT THAT, srsly. (eep, sorry caps!lock attacked there!)

I don't mind a little bit of sex integrated in a fic, but I don't want that to be the "whole of the fic" if you know what I mean. I mean, I want there to be meaning and I want there to be a little bit of plot, instead of just mindless smut.
Although, there are those nights when I don't want to think too much and I feel it might be a good time to just drop off into that for a couple of hours to let loose and be okay again, later. lol. So, there you have my late night guilty pleasure, if the world is falling down around me.

If it's not, then I expect more out of the fic that I read. I don't like how a lot of the slash fic is portraying the women in it either, that's why I'm most especially picky when I'm reading Jack/Ianto fic, because I don't want to see Gwen bashing even if she's not my favorite character. I'm like, dude just give it up and give it a rest. She's not THAT bad. Okay, she is sometimes, but that's sometimes and you don't have to objectively vilify her.

I know what you mean about the het couple being the forefront and then seeing something else, I do the same thing. lol. Of course, I think by default I've had more het couples than I do slash, only 'cause I'm picky about that and I want them to work and not like it just 'cause it's two guys. lol.

Exactly, which it makes me wonder if Psych is ever going to explore the chemistry between Shawn and Jules. I was really impressed that you shipped them and I was like, yes!!! This is of the good and then you went and shipped Lex&Lana with me and I was like, omg!squee ilu♥ so hardcore!

I know, hurt/comfort Dean!fic where Sam is the one who comforts him, is what I've been craving lately. I can't handle that, let's expand on Dean dying and go to hell. I know some people think it was actually amazing that he did die and go to hell, but I'm sorry - I DON'T FIND ANYTHING AMAZING ABOUT IT AT ALL - err, sorry caps!lock like whoa again. Forgimme?! lol.

*hugs* That's okay, it just sucks how they took two things that were perfectly fine and happy and then just screwed them over so royally. I know what you mean, friend. I just feel like Jason was the right guy for Kevin.
Alicia: So here we are ♥ Shawn + Julietgoodnightsong on June 4th, 2008 09:22 am (UTC)
Mm-hmm, when I'm searching for JackxIanto fic, I skip the pwp and go straight to H/C or even fluff if in character. Clex H/C is what I love the most. The breaking down of Lex that numerous fics give to us and the writers of SV could never do and for that I want to hug all the fic writers lol.

"Although, there are those nights when I don't want to think too much and I feel it might be a good time to just drop off into that for a couple of hours to let loose and be okay again, later. lol."

Oh yah. Haha. There are nights where I just need some mindless smut, the instant gratification and it's nice. And... yeah. *angelic whistle* Yes, about the female bashing! Just, why? Why do so many people see these female characters as nothing but whiny, selfish brats. It's kind of worrisome, as a female. I mean, surely there are other ways to use them besides a) getting rid of them b)turning them into bitchy, revenge-seeking ex-girlfriend of now-gay man c)making them more weak than they've ever been portrayed on the show. Especially with Lana. Oy.

I hope they do! Because, I mean, they are really cute and fun together, and they do have chemistry. I mean, when I first got into the show, admittedly I was wary of the Shawn&Jules dynamic but that was my knee-jerk reaction to it simply being a het pairing and I wanted my slash. But I don't know, something happened and I've gotten much more loose, and I took off my slash-colored glasses lol and saw them for the cuteness they are. Which then of course, instead of hoping they don't get together, now I do but now have to avoid a few comms when that happens. Ha. The curse and the blessing of liking het. I wish some people would not act as if it's being shoved down their throat. If you've experienced Smallville, that would be nothing in comparison! \o/

Ohh I need my Sam/Dean hurt-comfort fics after that finale. BASTARDS, you cold hearted bastards D:

Bastards!
just a girl: janto (tw) | wouldn't change_touched on June 4th, 2008 09:16 pm (UTC)
See, when I'm reading Jack/Ianto fic, it's usually the h/c and the angst that I go straight for, with less of the fluff. I mean, if I'm going to read fluff then it has to be written a certain way. Yes, lol, I'm just that picky damnit! *g* Yes, the Clex h/c seems to be the best written. Of course, I don't mind the bittersweet angst, either.

Yes, yes. I love the general breakdown of Lex, that the fiction world seems to give to us, that SV refuses. That's the best part of reading fanfcition, because some of the authors write better than the writer's for the show itself and that's saying A LOT right there.

Okay, portrait of miss innocence. lmao. I think we get the picture. *looks the other way* Haha. I really hate what fandom does to Lana in fiction, because they seem to abuse her a lot worse than the show writer's ever did. It makes me very disgruntled. Plus, the Torchwood fandom isn't any better with Gwen (of course, I can see why some view her the way they do), still doesn't make it right to freely make women weak, whiney and portray them in a rather demeaning light.

I know what you mean, I'm definitely pulling for Team!Shules myself. I like how lighthearted, fun and subtexty flirty they are with one another. It's not constant drama and it's not like the show has really shown her with another man or in a long-term relationship, so there would be absolutely no love triangle there in the mix to have to deal with. (Hai, ie: Clark/Lana/Lex. Oi! That made my head hurt!)

I'm glad that you kinda came around to the idea of the two of them, because I think they definitely have the potential of happening on the show, if the writer's just let them develop slowly and not just decide - oh hey, let's throw them together and see what happens and then it becomes volatile afterwards. I'd rather have them think it through and then decide on how they're going to approach it.

Haha, I love that. You should icon that, "Now Removing Slash!Colored Glasses".

Having to avoid comms for that reason, is no fun. This is what I don't like about fandom, is the fact that we can't all get along and just learn to co-exist with each other. Why is it necessary for us to cast stones at each other and then backbite and bitch for no apparent reasons. You like what you like and if you don't like it, you move on and get a life. lmao.

Yes, I should take my own advice. *g*

Ditto on the SV comment! Oi!

Yep, I know...me too. It wasn't cute or funny, when they sent Dean to hell. So, I want my h/c and angst Sam/Dean like whoa!

Hahaha...I wanna look up how to say bastard in like fifty different languages now, just 'cause I think it'd be fun to have an icon with nothing but that word in every language possible. LMAO.
klangley56: pic#75566004klangley56 on June 6th, 2008 12:50 am (UTC)
Well, in those very few fandoms where I find slash to be a possibility, I can't say I've ever gotten tired of reading the slash--just of reading the bad slash (which certainly can include the cliches and tropes mentioned in this discussion, like PWPS and over-reliance on sex scenes instead of genuine plot). Hell, as I recently observed in another LJ discussion, I got tired of "first time" stories 30 years ago--but I'll still read and appreciate any written by an excellent writer. :-)

Of course, it helps that slash is only one category of fan fiction in my library. I suppose if it was all I read, or primarily what I read, I might get bored more easily.

Interestingly, for as long as slash has been in public distribution (going back to the earliest days of K/S in the 70s), observations like this one have been a topic for debate (if not an actual bone of contention): "Oh look, they touched, oh, those two looked at each other oddly."

For my part, I never have been able to "slash for slash's sake." I don't and can't "see slashy subtext" everywhere I look. Evidence of emotional and/or physical intimacy (same gender or opposite) demonstrates only that characters are emotionally and/or physically intimate. Emotional/physical intimacy exists between people who are friends and among family members and is, by itself, insufficient to suggest, much less prove, that there is or should be sexual relationship.

I remember one of the original "incest slash" fandoms, from the early-to-mid-80s--"Simon and Simon" fandom. My friends and I were *so* bewildered by that and, when it was explained to us by proponents that "of course they're having sex, look at how much they love each other," it was (in modern 'net vernacular) a real *headdesk* moment for us.

It's the Vulcan in me--I need to see a logical extrapolation from the media source product to the suggested extra-textual relationship (slash or het). Connect all the dots for me--explain what is in canon (the characterizations, backgrounds, history, specific relationships, physical setting, time period, larger culture and worldview, etc.) that makes it possible (or even likely) and also rationally explain away whatever there is in canon that mitigates against it.

Not asking for much, am I? :-)

An observation of my own--not that anyone asked--on this: "I just wanted to be extra careful as to not come across as bashing anybody the post applied to."

It's not "bashing" to express a difference of opinion, and nobody should refrain from being honest because of concern that nameless others will be offended. In discourse, there is a right to express an opinion, but there is no right to not be offended by other's opinions.

I know that I, for one, have been around far too long (on this planet and in fandom) to feel called upon to stifle myself. :-) For example, I find "Wincest" to be a preposterous concept and the public distribution of RPS (or RPHet, if that exists) to be crossing a line that makes me want to deny being part of fandom if anyone asks. Obviously, there are folks in this discussion who will not agree with my viewpoint--and yet, the sun will rise in the morning for all of us. :-)
Elspeth: Steve/Tony heartselspethdixon on June 6th, 2008 06:42 pm (UTC)
Here via metafandom
fics featuring more sex than anything else. Like, pr0n here, pr0n there, now fit in some plot here. Okay, more pr0n!

Honestly, I'm a die-hard, died-in-the-wool slasher, and I've always been bored by most PWPs, save for the rare one that have awesome dialogue or actually serve to reveal something about the characters (or ones for my iron clad OTPs, both slash and het, where I'd read just about anything halfway decently written as long as it featured those pairings). When sex scenes show up in longer fics, I tend to skim them to get back to the talking, and my own fics, when I write them, tend to be relentlessly PG-13, and full of fade-to-blacks. Long, plotted hurt/comfort fic is my fannish be all and end all.

I'm all about the romance, and the love and the "these guys would die for each other/die without each other" melodrama, but sex is the less important part of that equation (and the same goes in het fic -- I'd rahter have one two hundred page fic full of of Rogue/Gambit or Kate/Sawyer action/melodrama/hurt-comfort with a couple of fade-to-black sex scenes than a dozen PWPs).

*points you at Avengers fandom, which contains a lot more long plotty h/c stuff than it does pr0n*
Iron Chef Hentailydia_petze on June 7th, 2008 12:41 am (UTC)
Actually, I understand exactly what you're talking about. I fell arse-backwards into slash almost ten years ago. For the first three or four years, that was pretty much exclusively my reading material. I WAS making up for lost time, though - I'm one of those people who had been slashing all by myself from a very young age (before I actually understood the specifics of m/m sex, and I found that out at about age 10). Nobody can sustain that level of involvement, and I started slowing down a bit. I've not lost interest in slashing people and characters at all - I don't think that's possible, but the amount of fanfic I read is not even a tenth of what it used to be.
(Deleted comment)
Alicia: TommyxMerton sooo cute!goodnightsong on June 7th, 2008 10:11 am (UTC)
Oh hi, heh. Pretty much. I can never get tired of slash, I'm just having difficulty finding the kind of slash I'm looking for nowadays. Depending on the fandom.

If a sex scene is beneficial to the story, or if it's at least a well written sex scene with a good feel of characterization and emotion, I'm all for it. But often times I get the feeling the author just doesn't quite know who the characters are and is mostly concerned with it being two hot men having sex for the sake of porn.

blackchaps: B/K Love by dawnydieselblackchaps on June 7th, 2008 01:26 am (UTC)
Oz - the fandom for canon men sex/love/porn ohmigod goodness!
Alicia: Kiss my eyes and lay me to sleep ♥ Clexgoodnightsong on June 7th, 2008 10:13 am (UTC)
So I've heard *snickers* Ya know I've been meaning to give that a try sometime. ;D
Naomi: Oz parole kiss By fftffrelling_tralk on June 7th, 2008 12:49 pm (UTC)
Totally seconding that rec!
bluevsgreybluevsgrey on June 7th, 2008 03:13 am (UTC)
Have you ever read SGA?
Alicia: Shawn ♥ Gusgoodnightsong on June 7th, 2008 10:17 am (UTC)
No actually I haven't. Should I? Various people on my flist have talked about it I believe but I've pretty much remained oblivious to it.
Maree: ashe (rozaerade)ms_maree on June 7th, 2008 10:58 am (UTC)
SGA is a fun fandom. Light on the angst.

But the show is fairly..mediocre, it does help to watch at least a season or two to get the feel for the characters. (the characters are the only bits about the show I like).

That is, if you're the type of person who likes to see canon first.
bluevsgreybluevsgrey on June 7th, 2008 11:03 pm (UTC)
From this post, I felt the aspects that you like in slash were things common in the SGA fandom. Of course it has more of a sci-fi vibe and Mckay/Sheppard is the main pairing. I started reading in the fandom with asolat's A beautiful lifetime event which I would recommend to slashers in general. It has a slightly cracky premise taken in a more serious light.

(Um, I am sure that the source material could be easily obtained, but I first got into the fandom by the excellent fanfiction. Also I could give you more/different recs if you wish. Sorry for hijacking your post, btw, I just know what feeling/mindset your talking about, and I tend to change fandoms at the point.)
bluevsgreybluevsgrey on June 7th, 2008 11:06 pm (UTC)
Or astolat rather.
Blackjack Gabbianiblackjackrocket on June 7th, 2008 06:52 am (UTC)
Yeah...the sex is great and all, but I want to read about what brings/keeps them together.

Wait, kisses being blocked by hands? What shows would those be? I haven't seen that done in, like, ten years. But that may be because I get most of my m/m in animated form.
Maree: ashe (rozaerade)ms_maree on June 7th, 2008 10:56 am (UTC)
It sounds a bit like you're falling out of love in your fandom/pairing etc.

I've read slash for about ten years now, and there comes a time in whatever pairing I'm reading where I get bored, I do tend stick around for two years or so, so it's not a quick thing, other fen have small times, or longer...depending on individual preferences.

I usually have about 3 to 6 months in hiatus where nothing interests me, then something new and shiny comes along and the cycle repeats itself. And each time I'm in hiatus I think 'oh this is it, I'm over slash, I'm over fanfiction, nothing will interest me again' but it does.

But that could change in the future.
Margareth: SFU Claire hmmm sceptical scepticalspankulert on June 7th, 2008 03:23 pm (UTC)
*points in the direction of "Six Feet Under"* Here, have some canon!gay, with all the issues and domestic stuff that goes with it. Enjoy! ;)
Alicia: TommyxMerton sooo cute!goodnightsong on June 7th, 2008 09:07 pm (UTC)
You know, typically if there is a canon pairing - or something just really slashy - I'd have heard about it by now. But I didn't even know about the gay relationship on Six Feet Under until I recently googled something to the effect of "fictional gay tv couples" lol.

I'm going to have to check it out sometime because it looks like an interesting show. *g*
The Good, The Bad and The Lana: smilie priyankathelana on June 8th, 2008 12:16 am (UTC)
I found this page to be really quite useful: http://gaydaytime.blogspot.com/

I know it says Gay Daytime and it is pretty much littered with a lot of posts because it is basically posting updates on whenever any soap opera in any country with a gay storyline has a new episode with them, but they also cover gay pairings in pretty much any media (Greek, Brothers&Sisters, a French cop show with a seriously hot gay lead character who even has a boyfriend, Skins), including "Blast from the Past" type of coverage (on things like Six Feet Under or Dawson's Creek).

afterelton.com also does reviews of any major gay media that pops up from a gay men/impact on society POV.
Margarethspankulert on June 8th, 2008 04:10 am (UTC)
It's in my top 3 TV shows ever, so I definitely recommend it :D

The pairing is given ample attention too.
The Good, The Bad and The Lana: chrolli love!thelana on June 8th, 2008 12:08 am (UTC)
here from metafandom
I really enjoyed reading your post. And it feels like an opinon I've been hearing quite a bit lately. Just people where the kink aspect does nothing for them and who would rather have more meat to everything. I have always felt that a lot of times, a truly good Gen story can be just as moving as any hardcore slash.

What I would like to see more of is canon gay relationships on television. I'd love more canon. I want something that's actually going to happen lol. But for fuck's sake, stop blocking the damn kisses with your shoulder and/or hand. That's just stupid and pointless. >:(

Soooo, how's your patience with soap operas?



(just kidding, it's just when you mentioned domestic they were the first thing that popped in my mind, but there's also JP and Craig and JP and Kieron of the British soap Hollyoakes. Now with a real chance for a sunset ending)

I do think that with things like Torchwood, Grey's Anatomy, Greek and others, we are no longer that far away anymore. It really feels like we could be on the cusp of something happening in society and at one point somebody will make the first step.

That said, I've actally noticed something really weird about myself. Namely that I notice that as my amount of canon slash rises, my need for fanfic slash drops. It seems a rather unique reaction though because it definitely doesn't seem to be a typical reaction (based on the sizes of the fandoms for Oz or Queer as Folk or Torchwood).

Edited at 2008-06-08 12:36 am (UTC)
Alicia: Kiss my eyes and lay me to sleep ♥ Clexgoodnightsong on June 8th, 2008 07:57 am (UTC)
Re: here from metafandom
Heh, you're using a Christian/Olli icon and I was just looking into them last night while checking that blog you happened to link to in your other comment afterwards. Okay I'm easily amused. But it's good to know that people here are sharing some of the same views as me.

"I have always felt that a lot of times, a truly good Gen story can be just as moving as any hardcore slash."

*nods in agreement* That's basically my stance. And there are some instances where I feel the slash - if taking up too much of the focus - takes away from a potentially really good story. But it all depends, really.

lol actually, soaps are definitely not my cup of tea and I don't have much interest, definitely no patience, for this Luke/Noah storyline people are talking about. Though hey, awesome that it's getting this buzz. But I have viewed clips of Hollyoakes before, and just last night the Christian/Oli pairing. I'll have to do further, er, research on them both ;)
The Good, The Bad and The Lanathelana on June 8th, 2008 08:16 am (UTC)
research ;)
I tried getting into Nuke but I just pretty much lost interest almost immediately. Their kisses when they first got together were really pretty and there was chemistry (particularly in the scene where they are both shirtless and wet from swimming and first almost kiss), but I just wasn't really inspired to watch much beyond that.

I tried HO and from what I have seen both the stories and the actors are very good but as a non-native speaker the accents just kick my ass big time. I have heard though that if you give the show a chance JP&Craig are very addictive (though opinions seem to be split on that; there are a LOT of people who are die hard shippers on one side and on the other side there are people who thought Craig didn't treat JP well enough).

Christian/Olli I think I like because their story is very, very fanficc-y to me. They meet, Christian has a girlfriend, at first they hate each other, but Christian displays a lot of overreacting to anything Olli related, Christian the angry jock turns out to have a heart of gold and a messed up past, Olli pines for Christian, there is a lot of fantasies and trying to kiss each other while one of them is asleep, etc. And yes domestic. (they are pretty lucky because they were roommates from the start so the whole "should we move together" question just never came up)

That said, I'm not sure how much soaps really lend themselves to being a good fandom. But I think at the very least they are worth watching because they often feel like a fanfic played out on screen.

Oh and I definitely reccommend watching them through playlists because that way you don't always have to search for the next part. And if watching the whole thing is too long for you, there this guy who put up a heavily edited version of the story which has really only the most important scenes of the stories (here, Roman and Deniz and Christian and Oliver, both from German soaps). If you just want to sample quickly, this might be your thing.

And there are some instances where I feel the slash - if taking up too much of the focus - takes away from a potentially really good story. But it all depends, really.

I think it's pretty much close to a universal truth that once you have a truly *longer* story with plot and everything, sex frequently loses its luster. Because a lot of the time it doesn't really fit in into the pacing of the story. But I was surprised that in some fandoms (particularly brother fandoms) even short fics (something like a Gen PWP) can touch me a lot. But it depends what mood I'm in.

(I also want to say, yay and ditto on the Gus/Shawn friendship love and the appreciation of Shawn/Juliet; I'm not sure if I would really ship S/J but I think they are well done)

Edited at 2008-06-08 08:23 am (UTC)
Psyche: Harder Faster Mister Masterazdaja_dafema on June 9th, 2008 04:56 am (UTC)
I agree with you that once you find it, you just open a /world/.It's odd, my young mind when discovering it relished it because it seemed like the characters were actually explored, whereas a lot of het I had found at my first fandom (HP, which I've abandoned for years) was absolutely awful. That said, I still look at some het fic, just not as much.

Then moved on to House, where the relationship between House and Wilson is slashy and interesting, and got into that. Again, it was the psychology, with people writing epics of 56,000 words where they only had sex three quarters through, along with the beautiful g-rated fics.

Then Doctor Who, and the Doctor/Master relationship got me again. That and I've a gutter mind and I quite like kink!fic. But, in moderation. You have to be in the mood for PWPs, be it het or slash.

Canon gay relationships on TV are few and far behind. One which has both male and female is The Wire. I think [their lack] is because so much of it is implied rather than actual. It's just easier to make offhand heterosexual remarks get through. Meh.
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